I expected to be thoroughly horrified and disgusted and...I'm not either. I must be coming from a totally different planet than the reviewers who were offended by it and I hope it isn't an evil, depraved planet.
Here are the topics covered in Part Two: Sex of the Driscolls' book:
"Sex: God, Gross or Gift": Mark and Grace delve into helping us to evaluate our view of sex. Do we think it's a blessing or a curse? The best part of this chapter is where they discuss how our spouse should be our "standard of beauty".
God does not give us a standard of beauty - God gives us spouses. Unlike other standards of beauty, a spouse changes over time. This means if your spouse is tall, you are into tall. If your spouse is skinny, you are into skinny. If your spouse is twenty, you are into twenty. When your spouse is sixty, you are no longer into twenty, but rather into sixty. And if your spouse used to be skinny, you were into skinny, but now you are into formerly skinny. (p.109-110)(Ever since Dave did this section of the "Real Marriage" study with some other guys, I like to refer to myself as his SOB.)
"Disgrace and Grace": Grace writes about her experience with sexual abuse, the ways in which it affected her marriage and intimacy with Mark, and how both she and Mark healed from its effects.
"The Porn Path": This chapter addresses how porn affects the brain, the effects it has on individuals and marriages, and how it harms everyone involved in it, from the viewer to the performer.
"Selfish Lovers and Servant Lovers": Here, they discuss the ways we are selfish in relation to sex and intimacy, and how we can instead serve each other through intimacy and changing unhealthy mindsets toward sex. There is much discussion of the sexuality expressed within Song of Songs. I've also read reviews by people disgusted by how sexually explicit Mark supposedly presents this book of Scripture. Having studied Song of Songs with my small group last year...yep, it is poetically explicit, you can't get around that, and I personally don't want to. I love that God wants us to have fun with married sex. This section is brief, mostly contains quotations from commentaries and isn't anything more explicit than what I read in Intimate Issues by Linda Dillows and Lorraine Pintus.
And then...THE chapter. Get ready.
"Can We ______?": This is how the Driscoll's introduce this chapter:
If you are older, from a highly conservative religious background, live far away from a major city, do not spend much time on the Internet, or do not have cable television, the odds are that you will want to read this chapter while sitting down, with the medics ready on speed dial.
If you are one of those people who do not know that the world has changed sexually, read this chapter not to argue or fight, but rather to learn about how to be a good missionary in this sexualized culture, able to answer people's questions without blushing. For parents, grandparents, and those in caring professions such as teachers, pastors, ministry leaders, and counselors, this task is all the more urgent. (p.177)Although some of the sexual practices they discuss are nothing new to the human experience- oral sex, masturbation, etc - there are some practices that are relatively new due to advances in science and technology - cybersex, sex toys, birth control - and some that have come into vogue due to pornography.
Many people feel that some of these acts - anal sex, in particular - are so dark and deviant that they shouldn't be discussed at all. Tim Challies, in part one of his review, writes, "Even if everyone else in the world is discussing them, we may need to avoid them or speak of them discreetly rather than blatantly. Some things are so dark and so obviously sinful that it is actually destructive to discuss them." I disagree, and here's why. We now live in a society where Fifty Shades of Grey is an international bestseller sold in grocery stores and a replacement for hotel Bibles. People are throwing FSoG parties complete with a complimentary photo in which each attendee is photographed in a bondage pose. There is going to be a mainstream movie of FSoG. We live in a society where sex experts go on Oprah and declare that couples should watch pornography together. We live in a society where there are popular reality shows about a polygamous family. Anything goes. Where some acts used to be considered inappropriate or harmful, now that so much is in front of our eyes on a daily basis, I think there are many people who are questioning whether or not they've been missing out.
I've said before that I think the discussions regarding sex within the church are often woefully inadequate. The Driscolls say in their introduction, "For such a big issue, most teaching on sex inside the church is inadequate, and most teaching on it outside the church is perverted (p.xiv)" Many Christian women either don't talk about it, discuss it in terms of "don't do it until you're married", or talk about it in euphemisms. And as the Driscolls write, "if people don't get answers from pastors and parents, they will find them in dark, depraved places." Do I think that we should preach on oral sex from the pulpit? Probably not. But we should be ok talking about it when it comes up as a question or if a spouse wants to try it. I think a book is a totally appropriate place to be discussing these questions, especially when it isn't even the main point of the book.
The Driscolls don't so much openly state what they find to be appropriate (although I think you can certainly figure it out; some of their statements are a little leading). Instead, they present a grid through which to evaluate the activities that a married couple might want to try. The grid comes from 1 Corinthians 6:12 and consists of three questions: Is it lawful? (Is it legal or explicitly forbidden by Scripture) Is it helpful? (allowing for pleasure, children, oneness, knowledge, protection, and comfort) Is it enslaving? (Is the act addicting or a regular replacement for true intimacy?) Many of the answers for those questions will be completely different for each couple.
So, I wasn't that shocked. Or horrified. Or disgusted. Is that because I'm a product of this over-sexualized generation? I don't know. I know that I didn't think anything in this book was more explicit than The Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex by Sheila Wray Gregoire or Intended For Pleasure by Ed Wheat, which describes itself as a "sex technique" book. And that one has illustrations. I remember finding The Act of Marriage on someone's bookshelf when I was a teenager and noticing that it was pretty darn explicit. How can we be offended by this one?
Well, I'm done with my review. I don't know that I'm going to be totally excited about everything Mark Driscoll says or writes. No one can say he hasn't said and done some strange and immature things. But I liked this book. Anyone want to chime in? Nicely?
Sharing with: Beholding Glory, Your Thriving Family, Finding Beauty, Consider the Lilies, Christian Mommy Blogger, NOBH, The Alabaster Jar, Matrimonial Mondays
I haven't read this book, and probably won't, but you are right about this subject being woefully under-taught. I am 60 years old, and when I talk to young women, they want to know about these things. I agree with your three tests; lawful, helpful, enslaving, as long as the definition of 'helpful' remains what you have designated rather than the all-to-easy definition as making one happy.
ReplyDeleteI taught purity for a number of years, and the most heart-rending comment we ever got was the young woman who said we were too late. Where were we before she'd already made her mistakes?
A copy of that book was circulated in the dorm at my son's bible school. That infamous chapter was dog-earred and the boys read it and read it. My son's comment: Who needs porn with Driscoll around. He is in the minority and at 20 calls Driscoll, a "child." My son was mortified that a grown man would be so indiscreet about his troubles. I guess my son is more concerned with someone's integrity than his "authenticity."
ReplyDeleteThere have been occasions when the church has not helped its people deal with sex well. It has reversed. I fear that the daily plethora of "Christian Sex Blogs," (by the way, Christian sex has the same mechanics as non-Christian sex; why the distinction?) are fostering an idolatry of sex. Our young people need to stop thinking that marriage is sex. The culture is highly sexualized, and apparently, we want that dragged into the Church.
I have come from a very prudish place to one of understanding in recent years and when I watched Mark's sermon on this chapter yesterday, I did not feel even mildly upset or irritated or that he went over any lines of inappropriateness. I think he actually handled a very touchy subject in a very thoughtful way, and some of the lines he delivered were meant, in my opinion, to lighten the mood. But, when someone's mood sits under negativity the size of the Rock of Gibraltar, what does one do to chip away at it?
ReplyDeleteI believe much of the conflict in messages and books like this comes from generational un/acceptance of this kind of openness, and also from denominational or family belief systems. "Openness" has become so open it's inside-out, and needs a leash to bring it into a discussable arena. "In your face" about sex and a person's private activities works just as well as "in your face" about God and faith when trying to help someone understand a point of view.
Along denominational and family lines, some people live under so many rules and controls, that discussion of marital sex - even if done discreetly - has no place in anyone's air space. Those seeking information on sex will go mainstream because they have no other known option. Finding the "truth" from Cosmo may lead the innocent to the Internet, and to disturbing mindsets. I have looked for information and learned it's fine to do all sorts of things that fly in the face of the three questions Mark and Grace introduced.
Personal barriers make the stumbling block in all of this. My family did not talk about sex. My church never mentioned it. Those situations create insecurity in a young person's mind. If a topic went unmentioned, I avoided it. It must lie in the category of "wrong". How many generations kept sex under cover, in the dark and in separate beds? Many who have a desire to know do their research in hiding, and what they find isn't usually based on the Bible, is it?
Today, with sex plastered everywhere in print media, social media and between every segment of every television program, it's selling. It's selling blatantly, and desensitizes viewers to its images to the point of acceptance as the "norm". Discussions via sermon (such as M. Driscoll's) or through literature written to support Biblical teachings gets kicked to the curb unless we Christians open our minds and hearts and our EARS.
I plan to purchase this book to learn more about how to handle situations I encounter in life -- when someone has a question, the more faith-based I can be, the more power I have. Pounding a Bible at someone will do nothing, but offering some Biblical references, and the fact that sex is FROM God, will help unlock doors.
I haven't read the book, but from what I've heard about it, I would agree with you. I've read some of the negative reviews and couldn't see what people were so upset about. Those reviews mostly seemed to come down to "Oh my goodness, they talked openly about SEX...how gross."
ReplyDeleteI think it's time we had an open discussion of sex. Too many young people these days (especially those of us who grew up in conservative Christian circles and saved ourselves for marriage) aren't getting the proper Christian message about sex. Many Christian circles have equated cultural ideas from the Victorian and Puritan eras with Scripture. There is nothing in the Bible about sex being bad, gross, for reproduction only, or that it should not be talked about. What we do find in Scripture is that sex is created by God for married couples only, but that all should revere the marriage bed and uphold God's design for marriage. Sex is a good thing and should be celebrated within its proper context as the gift that it is. This is what the Song of Songs does, and it's quite explicit (which tells us that it is not a sin to speak explicitly).
Because sex is meant to be only between a husband and wife, it should be done privately and details of a married couple's intimate moments should remain private as well. But generalities about sex (like whether or not specific acts are appropriate for married couples) can and should be discussed...perhaps not with everyone (singles may not need to know this yet), but at least with married people. In some cases, it may even be proper to share struggles that a couple has faced in order to help others with the same struggles.
In our culture, we are innudated with sex and sexual messages. Sex is celebrated, yes, but not in its proper context. In the world, sex is everything and nothing. Everything - because people act as though it is impossible to control oneself or to deny oneself, and to go without is, if not impossible, at least weird and unnatural. Nothing - because the world denies that having sex means anything more than physical pleasure. It's been degraded to nothing more than two people scratching a mutual itch. The Biblical view of sex is so much better than the world's, so much deeper and more profound, but Christian people are too afraid to talk about sex or even think about it (lest they lust or tempt themselves to engage in it (or, worse, enjoy it)). Thus, Christian young people are getting conflicting and equally wrong messages. On the one hand, they have the world telling them to do what feels good and, on the other, they have the silence of the church (or simply the "don't do it" message). Neither of these uphold God's plan for sex. It's time we had a voice who will proclaim the beauty and goodness of sex as God intended it.
I would say that it demonstrates a lack of integrity and self-control for unmarried college students to be reading about married sex in the first place. Unless those young men are engaged to be married and approaching the wedding, it's completely inappropriate for them to be reading it. It would be equally inappropriate for a young unmarried woman to pick up The Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex or The Act of Marriage or Sheet Music or whatever else.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think people forget that Grace wrote the book with him. Why is no one slamming her?
I listened to that sermon as well this week, and I thought he had some great clarifications and emphasized evaluating the heart motivation for some of these things. I think that's the important thing: Why do we want to try these things? Where is it coming from?
ReplyDeleteSeeing Cosmo on the grocery store shelves bugs the heck out of me. All those stories on "How to Wow Him in Bed" and "How to Have an Orgasm" are not written to married women...they're written to unmarried women who are expected to be having sex, and many of them are. Most young people are getting the wrong sort of information prior to marriage because they allow themselves to read inappropriate magazines, watch inappropriate movies and read inappropriate books. And then they move into marriage expecting all those things to be reality without considering whether their mindset is godly.
Elizabeth you and I must be on the same planet. Growing up NOT in a church, I've been subjected to the world...and at a young age. Nothing harrowing, but I've heard about all the stuff you mention.
ReplyDeleteI haven't read the book, but I like their "grid" filter. The intimacy between a husband and a wife is just that...intimate. And God made it that way for a reason. It's between you and your spouse...and God.
If you and your husband have an awesome sex life that's wonderful. That is a true blessing from God. But if you don't I don't see anything wrong with getting some "instruction"...as long as both of you are agreeable. God does want us to be happy after all! ;)
Great post!
I haven't read the book, but we did watch their sermon series about the book. I agree with you completely - the world is talking about it. Starting in junior high (or earlier). If the church chooses not to talk about it...the only information anyone has is from the world. And that's downright scary.
ReplyDeleteI have heard a lot of negative things about this book, but now reading your review ... well, I really want to read it and make a judgment call for myself. Hey you never know I might learn something - HA! :)
ReplyDeleteHi, Kim. My first thought was "out of context". The Bible usually is the victim of this, but in this case, the Driscoll's book is meant for married people, which are also who sex is for ... solely. How many high-schoolers giggle and point at the illustrations of the human body in the health textbook, unknowing how important it is to know and understand how and why they work. Out of context it's funny and gross, but in the context of life, very important.
ReplyDeleteThe distinction of "Christian" sex is this: God created sex for a man and woman, once married, to become one, to enjoy one another fully, and to multiply and do their part to fill the earth. When thinking in these terms, in a marriage commitment, sex is a bonding thing, set apart from everything else about marriage.
All other sex between people is fornication or adultery.
Sex between a husband and wife is bonding like nothing else. Leave it out, and something isn't right and everything around it falls apart -- I have experienced it. Unmarried people of any age need to understand how whole and right it is in the right context, and how demeaning, degrading, selfish and unfulfilling it is outside marriage.
There is danger of sex becoming an idol -- as the Driscoll's state, an enslavement or addiction. Discussing its importance and its place in the marriage covenant is more important than anything else. It is not a duty, it is a God-given gift, and when shared with the right heart-set and mind-set, is the most beautiful thing a couple can share.
I will pray for those boys -- and for everyone else, I guess, who has taken this out of the light it was meant for and made it into something wrong. Not every messenger speaks to everyone the same way, and perhaps Mark Driscoll's approach hit a target audience and missed many more, but I can't say every pastor in the pulpit has given me everything I need, either.
Blessings to you!
Ephesians 5:11-13 says: "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light." I think the more we expose the deeds of darkness and show where the real light is, the more we are encouraging couples toward godly sexuality.
ReplyDeleteCould someone misuse information gleaned from my site? Sure, but I guarantee that what I share is nothing compared to what's on cable, and I repeatedly stress the values of God-honoring sex within marriage. I have no problems with the Driscolls discussing this topic. (Although I have not read the book and cannot comment on it as a whole.)
For too long, we have avoided the conversation and thus allowed secular voices to speak to our children, our church members, and our couples with their view of sex. I believe it's past time to reclaim sexuality as God's domain, God's creation, and God's design for marital intimacy. As U.S. Supreme Court
Justice Louis Brandeis famously said, "Sunlight is the best disinfectant."
I do not think people are slamming her because he makes it quite clear what her role is. I think she is a victim, she may not know it but she is. and really... "demonstrates a lack of integrity and self-control for unmarried college students to be reading about married sex in the first place" as "godly" as one thinks college boys might be how does one expect them to stay away from sex? i mean at least if they are reading this book its a step up from playboy! and why would it be inappropriate for a unmarried woman to read TGGGTGS? doesnt she have the right to know what to expect?
ReplyDeleteContrary to what many people think, it is very possible to not have sex before marriage. You're not going to avoid the subject and I don't think it's healthy to, but I also don't think that you should deliberately make it harder for yourself to not have sex. If you're deliberately reading a book with the intent (or hope) of getting aroused when you have no godly way of doing anything about it, you should stay away from that book.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely think young women should know what to expect. But again, I don't think a woman who is trying to exercise self-control and not have sex should pick up a book to read about what an orgasm feels like. It just isn't helpful. If she is engaged and headed towards marriage with a guy, then she should pick up a technical book about sex. In the meantime though, both single men and single women can be learning about a godly mindset towards sex.
J - I really appreciate your blog and your willingness to openly talk about things that women have questions about. There are always going to be people who misuse information about sex but that doesn't mean that the message should therefore be kept hidden in the dark. Thanks for what you do!
ReplyDeleteFrom what I can tell, it's one of these books that you either love or hate, so you might have an entirely different viewpoint. I'd love to read a review on your site though too!
ReplyDelete"Those reviews mostly seemed to come down to "Oh my goodness, they talked openly about SEX...how gross." What gets me about those negative reviews that were so shocked about the openness of the discussion is that THEY chose to focus on ONE chapter in the book! The whole book is not about specific sexual practices but the reviewers definitely brought the things they hated into the limelight.
ReplyDeleteI would like to read this now :)
ReplyDeleteThanks, Elizabeth, for reviewing this book—I haven’t read it, but I did
ReplyDeletefollow your link and read Challies’ review.
A couple thoughts: Challies is critical of the book because he says it
doesn’t adequately emphasize the Gospel-centered purpose of marriage in
reflecting Christ and the Church (Ephesians 5).
What is your perspective on this?
I was a little troubled by your paragraph basically implying
that we in the Church should discuss sex more openly because our culture
does. (Maybe I misread you … I’m looking
at the paragraph with the phrase “I disagree,
and here's why. We now live in a society ….”)
I’m NOT arguing for Victorian prudishness of course. But that said, I don’t think we in the Church
should take our cues from the world in how we speak and how we behave. It reminds me of those annoying bumper stickers “Got
Jesus?” or what I recently read, that there is apparently a Christian marriage
seminar “50 Shades of Grace” ::face palm::.
There’s perhaps nothing essentially sinful about this, but it bothers me
that we in the Church are following the world’s culture so much instead of
setting trends ourselves. I believe we should
be talking openly (but appropriately, of course) about sex because of its
created goodness, not because of our society.
I don’t think we should say, “Look, the world is talking about sexual
deviancy all the time, we can’t afford to talk in euphemisms anymore.” Perhaps we shouldn’t speak in euphemisms, but
it should be for a better reason than following society. We do need to address openly the issues Christians
are dealing with, BUT I don’t think in deciding how sexually explicit our
language should be, that we should take any cues from the world.
God created sex as a good thing, and part of our response to the sexual deviancy of the world should be to emphasize God's good plan for how delightful married sex should be.
I actually won two copies of the book and the DVD set for helping promote it when it came out (I think I posted a trailer on my blog or something like that). I was quite excited about it, as I've read a lot of marriage books and always appreciate the new perspective that another book gives me. However, I found it hard to get into the Driscoll's book. I found the first chapter - about their own love life - very long and TMI. It dealt so much on the rocky times of their marriage that I found myself questioning how they could now write marriage advice for others.
ReplyDeleteAs for "THE" chapter... well, my biggest problem with that chapter is the fact that I'm Catholic, and the Catholic Church gives a slightly different guide to what is beneficial in a marriage relationship. Contrary to what most people believe, Catholics are NOT anti-sex. The Church has a list of criteria similar to what the Driscolls have for determining what is good or not so good in sex. So some of the things that the Driscolls said was okay would not come up okay according to the Catholic criteria.
Other than that, I agree with you that this stuff does need to be discussed in our oversexualized culture. I'd love to read Sheila's book, as I follow her blog and love her advice there. I just disagreed with some of what the Driscolls had to say, and found other marriage books more helpful (I'd recommend Gary Chapman). At the same time, we're all different so one book may speak to one couple more than another book, so keep reading marriage books. :)
wow. i know some people think that its good not to have sex before they are married, and thats great if that is what they want. i personally have no problem with it. but i do think its unrealistic to think that people men in particular can absatin from masturbating until they are married. so i dont think that a girl should pick up a BOOK to find out what an orgasm feels like because it should be something she knows, from knowing her body. and guys are going to be aroused ALL THE TIME, so isnt it better for them to take care of that themselves than having sex?
ReplyDeleteVery true that one book might speak to one couple but not to another. I think that one of the reasons it resonated with me was because my husband and I spent our first few years really struggling with some big issues. But I think they are somewhat removed from the worst of the struggles (although certainly not done...no couple ever is) and in a place where they can objectively look back at what they did wrong and see how God changed them. To me, it was from that place of knowing how God helped them that they have this desire to help others.
ReplyDeleteAnd I would love to hear the basics of the grid that the Catholic Church uses to determine whether something is helpful or not if you don't mind sharing it. My mom and grandparents were Catholic for much of their lives but sex is not something I've talked about in much detail with them. ;)
About Challies point about the Gospel-centeredness...to back up a little, I think that each marriage book has a different focus and a different purpose. I don't see the purpose of the Driscoll's book to be laying a foundation for Christian marriage; it dealt more with practicalities and applications of beliefs. This isn't the only marriage book that anyone should read; it probably fits better in conjunction with books that do lay that strong foundation and focus on our mindset and beliefs about marriage - Sacred Marriage (Thomas) being one that comes to mind. That being said, when I think back through the book, I distinctly remember an emphasis on Jesus' work on the cross...the solution to problems is Jesus, His blood covers every sin, there is forgiveness and hope because of what He did on the cross. There was a lot of hope expressed through the book in that way.
ReplyDelete"I don’t think we in the Church should take our cues from the world in how we speak and how we behave." Obviously the world is talking about sex VERY openly and the way they are talking about sex deviates very pointedly from God's purpose for it. My point is more that we probably should have been doing that trend-setting that you mention and started talking about it more openly a long time ago, but because of the lack of discussion in the past, now we're faced with an issue of correcting Christians' thinking in this area so I think it's time for a course correction. It's not so much of a "well, everyone else in society is talking about it, so now we should" but "Society is talking about it so openly, and we do have a responsibility to respond to it and to present the real truth about sex and how to treat it in a godly way and have a godly mindset about it." While I don't think the church should be a chameleon and change to appear to be hip and cool, I do think there is an aspect of responding to what is going on and addressing hot-button issues that may change as society evolves (for better or for worse). Does that distinction make sense?
I also think the question comes down to what you really think is "sexually deviant". I honestly don't think that anything (well, with the exception of one thing that just turns me off) that Mark and Grace addressed in their book was actually "deviant". There were a lot of things that they simply listed as sin, no question, no discussion and moved on, but then they took other topics and ran them through the grid as potentially acceptable in individual marriages.
I realize that this may be taking too hard of a line for you, but I believe the issue of not having sex before married isn't really an issue of personal preference. I believe that God designed sex as one of the things that sets the married relationship apart from any other relationship. It is only acceptable within the confines of that marital covenant.
ReplyDeleteSo that leaves the question of what to do with sexual desires that clearly exist before marriage. Isn't it better to just masturbate? Does a woman need to "know her body" before marriage? No to both questions. Jesus addressed the issue of lusting after other women when he said, "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The lustfulness that occurs with the masturbation is not ok. Secondly, there's an issue of learning to exercise self-control. Even within marriage, we have to exercise self-control since there will be times when it is not possible to have sex or the other spouse doesn't want to. It's a good idea to learn that before marriage by not masturbating and lusting after other women.
As far as "needing to know her own body"...Yes, a woman needs to know her own body, but there isn't any reason why that has to happen before marriage. If you're going to be spending a lifetime having sex with your husband, there's a lifetime to learn that together.
you said "i believe" and ok thats what you belive what what YOU belive does not apply to everyone. maybe if more christian women were not so uptight about touching themselves they would not need all these silly books to tell them what an orgasm is and so forth. anyway just my opinion which will not change no matter how much you try to insult me. so all i have to say is yeah have fun when you have 3 teenage boys.
ReplyDelete"How much you try to insult me"...what exactly are you insulted by?
ReplyDeleteI have read it and watched him and her both teach on it online. I was not offended or disgusted at all. I enjoyed the book and it is one that I would encourage others to read. In fact, it is one that I would to have liked to read before marriage. Just throwing that out there. Great review!
ReplyDeleteHi, Eden --
ReplyDeleteThe belief system we share as Christians is alike in many ways, but each of us is at a different place as far as what we believe to be right or wrong ... mainly, in how far along we are on our path of faith. When someone accepts that Christ died for her sins, and asks God to be Lord of her life (when the Holy Spirit becomes your guide -- not as a puppet, but as a free-willed person), her belief system will begin to change.
Each of us find lines drawn around things from time to time -- like our own personal boundaries, based on what we learn from the Bible (through reading, studying, listening to the teaching of others, and through experience, as well as from the nudgings of the Holy Spirit). As we grow in faith, we discover ourselves thinking, "Nope. That's not for me -- I believe that's not right for me to do," and so, we consciously make a choice not to participate/indulge/do something.
Some Christians like to force these beliefs (also called "convictions") on friends, family and others -- and they're the ones who give Christianity a bad name. We can't save everyone else by forcing or encouraging them to make what we believe to be right choices.
In the discussion over the Driscoll book, some Biblical truths have come to light -- that sex outside a marriage relationship is wrong. Yes, this is Biblical, and those of us who believe the Bible to be the Word of God know this is true. Guess what -- not all of us have acted as Christians and abstained from sex before marriage, and not all of us have done godly things once married, either. But, because we are on a faith path, constantly learning and growing in faith, we find our choices changing and those lines becoming clearer about what is right or wrong.
A dear friend of mine lived with her husband before they married -- for years -- and was a Christian. She overlooked her beliefs for the sake of saving money, and the sex they had while living together was something she knew was wrong, too -- but being young and "grown up" at the same time, she made the choices and now lives with the knowledge of doing that wrong ... in the eyes of God. She has asked forgiveness for those things she knows were wrong, and uses her story to help other people who feel they can't follow God/Jesus/Holy Spirit because of the wrong they have done. This friend is active in our church, leads Bible studies for women and participates actively in her church and family life. She will never forget her choices, and with God's help (through praying and reading and discussion like this one), she helps others to find peace in life.
I hope you will continue reading, questioning and finding your way along -- and I would love for that way to be on a path of faith. You won't ever be perfect in this life, but you will find freedom in making choices, and you will find new avenues in life that you never may have imagined. Christianity is not a club. It is not a cult, and it is not a lie. These beliefs we have began with God, and have never changed in value. The world has changed, but faith and the God that heads that faith remain constant -- and we learn and grow to reach that constant every day.
Hang in there -- keep learning.
I believe you misread most of what I've said. I know what sex between a husband and wife is. I've been married for 25 years in a solid, healthy, Christian, happy marriage. Mr. Driscoll speaks to a particular audience, in a specific demographic. That doesn't mean his work is able to be translated into every context. And as for the book being about married sex, yes, I realize that too. In a perfect world, young men at school would not look into such things, but when some of the men in residence are engaged to be married, the topic comes up, and we mothers can't control their every move away from home. I wanted to e-mail you this comment, because I prefer not to continue dialogue in a comments forum, but I was not able to locate an e-mail address from you.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Kim. I misunderstood your rhetorical question, I see, and went on from there. In the end, perhaps someone will come along and read all of this and get answers he/she needed.
ReplyDeleteI'll amend the missing e-mail address. Thanks!
Read the book, saw him in person, and are leading a small group on it! We HAVE to be the place people can turn for solid biblical answers on sex and real life marriage. I can't agree with Pastor Mark more that if people can't come to church for their answers, they will find them in the dark places. Great post, and I appreciate your honesty about expectations and how you still enjoyed the book. Sometimes the Proverbs 31 woman seems so unattainable, we are tempted to fake perfection while walking further away from God's plan. Keep up the discussion! I urge all of you no to nit pick, but weigh your choices and decisions in scripture, and don't give the devil a foothold with worthless arguments over things that are not black in white in the Bible, but where God's conviction in your heart is where you should draw the line for you and your spouse. Then, TALK TO YOUR SPOUSE about it! Who knows, our lines have shifted over the years, back and forth for both of us. The more we grow in Christ, the more we eliminate some things from out lives and invite others in, sometimes it's setting a healthy boundary, and others it's tearing down walls in our heart we never should have built in the first place. Run to God with your questions, fears, doubts, and desires first! Then take it to your husband, then only with his permission seek godly counsel from a trusted Christian source who will shoot you straight. No gossiping with family, (you know what I mean, calling mom, calling your sister, or any of the in laws...we've all done it, and we know we shouldn't have) no gossiping with coworkers, and no gossiping through prayer requests or your ladies groups at church. Keep it biblical, keep it real, and keep fighting for your marriage! I'm proud to call myself a warrior wife, thanks Elizabeth for the honest post, keep it up!
ReplyDeleteI also love this book. It provides matured techniques to face problems. Actually when I'm stressed, I'd rather not talk to my partner than for him to get mad at me because of my bad mood. What I do is to do an EFT or tapping. It really improves my emotional health and helped me control it.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to step out on a limb here and say that I'm guilty of every one of the things you just mentioned. But I also completely (but respectfully) disagree with your view that young people should never read or immerse themselves in Christian books about marriage and sexuality. Why? Because the sobering truth is that the world has literally forced the issue of sexuality on us, and far earlier than ever (and yes, it's getting worse by the day). The majority of young people have already been exposed to far, far more graphic sexual things than are ever mentioned in any Christian blog or book about sexuality. Unfortunately, I speak from experience on that.
ReplyDeleteThere are two very different kinds of discussion about sex: one strictly for the purposes of sexual arousal, and one for the purpose of truth. Is there some overlap? Absolutely. We can never guarantee that discussion of sex for the purpose of truth won't arouse someone, but as believers, we have two choices: we can run from what the world is trying to shove down our throat, or we can confront it honestly with biblical truth backed up by medical and statistical facts.
Young people are going to think and be fascinated by sex. I would rather see them spending those moments reading blogs or books on sexual intimacy from the Christian Marriage Bloggers Association, even if they are initially doing it for prurient reasons. Why? Because it's the ONLY place they are going to hear the truth about it. If they're reading it to get aroused, that's an issue that I believe God will begin to deal with them about. But frankly, as someone whom God rescued from an addiction to pornography, if I wanted to get aroused, I would never be visiting or reading ANY Christian books or blogs. Within a few clicks, I can get that from thousands of different websites. But I don't want that (ever again). I want the truth about sexuality and what God created it for. Not a series of lies.
Yes, there are some subjects that are better left to marital books (such as how to give a hand job) but according to statistics, that type of info they probably already know. In the end, truth trumps lies and deceit. Personally, I NEED those daily reminders of why I'm waiting for sexual intimacy and what God designed it to be. Why pornography is wrong. I need that truth.
I don't have a problem with unmarried adults reading books that give a good overview on a godly perspective on marriage and sexuality. However, my issue is that I don't think it's appropriate for unmarried adults to be reading about sexual technique if there's nothing they can legitimately do about it. If someone is engaged, then it's probably appropriate to get some more info on those areas, but otherwise, it's just wiser to stay away.
ReplyDeleteAgreed--a very good point! Ideally, it would be great if those two aspects were kept separate (truth from technique), but (at least from what I've seen), often they reside in the same book.
ReplyDeleteAnd I owe you an apology for my soapbox rant--sorry about that. :( I was too quick in hitting "reply".
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